[Dixonary] OT: "may" used in third person/second person request for permission?

Have any of you experienced someone using "may" as a second- or
third-person request for permission? I'm specifically interested in the
habits of educated speakers and occurrences older than 20 years, as both
fall outside of my experiences.

My understanding of "may" is mainly in two forms:

First, as a statement of nonspecific probability, wherein any person is a
valid expression, for example, "They, he, she, we, you, or I may be going
to the park later." In this case, any of the pronouns will work
independently, and not only as that absurd list.

Second, as a negotiation of permission, for example, "May I hold your
hand?" and its response, "Yes, you may." And this is the form in which I'm
specifically interested.

It almost exclusively takes the form of a first-person request followed by
a second-person permission or denial. "May I?" "Yes, you may." "No, you may
not."

(Less often used is a third-person request, but I've only ever seen it with
proper nouns—always along the lines of, "May Sally come out to play?"
instead of the less-descriptive, "May they come out to play?" I assume this
is primarily circumstantial, as it's always in a situation with an
imbalance of power, and usually only seen within parent-child dynamics
wherein one child is asking another child's parent for permission. I
believe this process may be waning due to the use of "can" eclipsing that
of "may" and the advent of cell phones and a greater emphasis on personal
accountability. And probably the specificity of a parent-child
relationship. Adulthood is quite different. You wouldn't go to the Director
of Marketing and say, "May Joe come consult on this presentation?" You'd
just talk to Joe. Or you'd ask the Director's opinion. Or you'd ask the
Director to clear some scheduling time for Joe, but that would still be a
request on your own behalf, "May I have a some time to get Joe's take on
this?" But I digress.)

In any case, some 12 years back, I noticed a tendency among my children to
say "May you . . .?" And my partner's niblings do the same. And now, oddly,
my 60ish manager is doing it, too.

Is this new? Have any of you experienced this construction? When and where?

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Common for many years. Better to some than "Can Sally come out to play?"
where the issue is not "physical ability" but "implicit permission."

Where the question is asked of a person with authority over a person, the
same may be true. A superior in any management charge generally can control*
work-related permissions*.



On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 8:31:27 PM UTC-4, Ryan McGill wrote:
>
> Have any of you experienced someone using "may" as a second- or
> third-person request for permission? I'm specifically interested in the
> habits of educated speakers and occurrences older than 20 years, as both
> fall outside of my experiences.
>
> My understanding of "may" is mainly in two forms:
>
> First, as a statement of nonspecific probability, wherein any person is a
> valid expression, for example, "They, he, she, we, you, or I may be going
> to the park later." In this case, any of the pronouns will work
> independently, and not only as that absurd list.
>
> Second, as a negotiation of permission, for example, "May I hold your
> hand?" and its response, "Yes, you may." And this is the form in which I'm
> specifically interested.
>
> It almost exclusively takes the form of a first-person request followed by
> a second-person permission or denial. "May I?" "Yes, you may." "No, you may
> not."
>
> (Less often used is a third-person request, but I've only ever seen it
> with proper nouns—always along the lines of, "May Sally come out to play?"
> instead of the less-descriptive, "May they come out to play?" I assume this
> is primarily circumstantial, as it's always in a situation with an
> imbalance of power, and usually only seen within parent-child dynamics
> wherein one child is asking another child's parent for permission. I
> believe this process may be waning due to the use of "can" eclipsing that
> of "may" and the advent of cell phones and a greater emphasis on personal
> accountability. And probably the specificity of a parent-child
> relationship. Adulthood is quite different. You wouldn't go to the Director
> of Marketing and say, "May Joe come consult on this presentation?" You'd
> just talk to Joe. Or you'd ask the Director's opinion. Or you'd ask the
> Director to clear some scheduling time for Joe, but that would still be a
> request on your own behalf, "May I have a some time to get Joe's take on
> this?" But I digress.)
>
> In any case, some 12 years back, I noticed a tendency among my children to
> say "May you . . .?" And my partner's niblings do the same. And now, oddly,
> my 60ish manager is doing it, too.
>
> Is this new? Have any of you experienced this construction? When and where?
>

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I always thought that "may" was a request for permission, whereas "can"
meant was it possible.

On 8/23/2019 8:31 PM, Ryan McGill wrote:
> Have any of you experienced someone using "may" as a second- or
> third-person request for permission? I'm specifically interested in
> the habits of educated speakers and occurrences older than 20 years,
> as both fall outside of my experiences.
>
> My understanding of "may" is mainly in two forms:
>
> First, Â*as a statement of nonspecific probability, wherein any person
> is a valid expression, for example, "They, he, she, we, you, or I may
> be going to the park later." In this case, any of the pronouns will
> work independently, and not only as that absurd list.
>
> Second, as a negotiation of permission, for example, "May I hold your
> hand?" and its response, "Yes, you may." And this is the form in which
> I'm specifically interested.
>
> It almost exclusively takes the form of a first-person request
> followed by a second-person permission or denial. "May I?" "Yes, you
> may." "No, you may not."
>
> (Less often used is a third-person request, but I've only ever seen it
> with proper nouns—always along the lines of, "May Sally come out to
> play?" instead of the less-descriptive, "May they come out to play?" I
> assume this is primarily circumstantial, as it's always in a situation
> with an imbalance of power, and usually only seen within parent-child
> dynamics wherein one child is asking another child's parent for
> permission. I believe this process may be waning due to the use of
> "can" eclipsing that of "may" and the advent of cell phones and a
> greater emphasis on personal accountability. And probably the
> specificity of a parent-child relationship. Adulthood is quite
> different. You wouldn't go to the Director of Marketing and say, "May
> Joe come consult on this presentation?" You'd just talk to Joe. Or
> you'd ask the Director's opinion. Or you'd ask the Director to clear
> some scheduling time for Joe, but that would still be a request on
> your own behalf, "May I have a some time to get Joe's take on this?"
> But I digress.)
>
> In any case, some 12 years back, I noticed a tendency among my
> children to say "May you . . .?" And my partner's niblings do the
> same. And now, oddly, my 60ish manager is doing it, too.
>
> Is this new? Have any of you experienced this construction? When and
> where?
> --
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> Second, as a negotiation of permission, for example, "May I hold your hand?" and its response,
> "Yes, you may." And this is the form in which I'm specifically interested.

I think it can reasonably be used in first or third person, singular or plural, but I don't know
what it would mean if used in the second person.

May I borrow your pencil?
Mey we use your conference room this morning?
May Peter come as well?
May the standards committee have access to our wifi?

But in the second person, who's giving permission?

If I say "May you be free next Tuesday?" that sounds more like the uncertain situation you mentioned
as a separate case.

Can you give a complete example of the sort of thing you're concerned with? (And I don't mean just
"Can you ...?", but "Please do ..."!)


Another sort of third person: may dogs come into the zoo?

Best wishes,
Tim Bourne.

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I’ve heard the second-person quite often in musical or poetic forms, for example:



“May you live in interesting times� or “May you stay forever young� or in some religious blessings “May you grow in grace.�



All seem to take the form of.a blessing/curse, although if we’re talking blessings I much prefer this collection of third-person “may <third person> do stuff for you�:



May the road rise up to meet you.

May the wind be always at your back.

May the sun shine warm upon your face;

the rains fall soft upon your fields and until we meet again,

may God hold you in the palm of His hand.







From: <dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com> on behalf of Ryan McGill <ryanmmcgill (AT) gmail (DOT) com>
Reply-To: <dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com>
Date: Friday, August 23, 2019 at 5:31 PM
To: Dixonary <dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com>
Subject: [Dixonary] OT: "may" used in third person/second person request for permission?



Have any of you experienced someone using "may" as a second- or third-person request for permission? I'm specifically interested in the habits of educated speakers and occurrences older than 20 years, as both fall outside of my experiences.



My understanding of "may" is mainly in two forms:



First, as a statement of nonspecific probability, wherein any person is a valid expression, for example, "They, he, she, we, you, or I may be going to the park later." In this case, any of the pronouns will work independently, and not only as that absurd list.



Second, as a negotiation of permission, for example, "May I hold your hand?" and its response, "Yes, you may." And this is the form in which I'm specifically interested.



It almost exclusively takes the form of a first-person request followed by a second-person permission or denial. "May I?" "Yes, you may." "No, you may not."



(Less often used is a third-person request, but I've only ever seen it with proper nouns—always along the lines of, "May Sally come out to play?" instead of the less-descriptive, "May they come out to play?" I assume this is primarily circumstantial, as it's always in a situation with an imbalance of power, and usually only seen within parent-child dynamics wherein one child is asking another child's parent for permission. I believe this process may be waning due to the use of "can" eclipsing that of "may" and the advent of cell phones and a greater emphasis on personal accountability. And probably the specificity of a parent-child relationship. Adulthood is quite different. You wouldn't go to the Director of Marketing and say, "May Joe come consult on this presentation?" You'd just talk to Joe. Or you'd ask the Director's opinion. Or you'd ask the Director to clear some scheduling time for Joe, but that would still be a request on your own behalf, "May I have a some time to get Joe's take on this?" But I digress.)



In any case, some 12 years back, I noticed a tendency among my children to say "May you . . .?" And my partner's niblings do the same. And now, oddly, my 60ish manager is doing it, too.



Is this new? Have any of you experienced this construction? When and where?

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Interesting - Dan's list is, I think, a rare example in English of the
use of the subjunctive tense

*JohnnyB*
On 24/08/2019 22:16, Daniel B Widdis wrote:
>
> I’ve heard the second-person quite often in musical or poetic forms,
> for example:
>
> “May you live in interesting times� or “May you stay forever young� or
> in some religious blessings “May you grow in grace.�
>
> All seem to take the form of.a blessing/curse, although if we’re
> talking blessings I much prefer this collection of third-person “may
> <third person> do stuff for you�:
>
> May the road rise up to meet you.
>
> May the wind be always at your back.
>
> May the sun shine warm upon your face;
>
> the rains fall soft upon your fields and until we meet again,
>
> may God hold you in the palm of His hand.
>
> *From: *<dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com> on behalf of Ryan McGill
> <ryanmmcgill (AT) gmail (DOT) com>
> *Reply-To: *<dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com>
> *Date: *Friday, August 23, 2019 at 5:31 PM
> *To: *Dixonary <dixonary (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com>
> *Subject: *[Dixonary] OT: "may" used in third person/second person
> request for permission?
>
> Have any of you experienced someone using "may" as a second- or
> third-person request for permission? I'm specifically interested in
> the habits of educated speakers and occurrences older than 20 years,
> as both fall outside of my experiences.
>
> My understanding of "may" is mainly in two forms:
>
> First, Â*as a statement of nonspecific probability, wherein any person
> is a valid expression, for example, "They, he, she, we, you, or I may
> be going to the park later." In this case, any of the pronouns will
> work independently, and not only as that absurd list.
>
> Second, as a negotiation of permission, for example, "May I hold your
> hand?" and its response, "Yes, you may." And this is the form in which
> I'm specifically interested.
>
> It almost exclusively takes the form of a first-person request
> followed by a second-person permission or denial. "May I?" "Yes, you
> may." "No, you may not."
>
> (Less often used is a third-person request, but I've only ever seen it
> with proper nouns—always along the lines of, "May Sally come out to
> play?" instead of the less-descriptive, "May they come out to play?" I
> assume this is primarily circumstantial, as it's always in a situation
> with an imbalance of power, and usually only seen within parent-child
> dynamics wherein one child is asking another child's parent for
> permission. I believe this process may be waning due to the use of
> "can" eclipsing that of "may" and the advent of cell phones and a
> greater emphasis on personal accountability. And probably the
> specificity of a parent-child relationship. Adulthood is quite
> different. You wouldn't go to the Director of Marketing and say, "May
> Joe come consult on this presentation?" You'd just talk to Joe. Or
> you'd ask the Director's opinion. Or you'd ask the Director to clear
> some scheduling time for Joe, but that would still be a request on
> your own behalf, "May I have a some time to get Joe's take on this?"
> But I digress.)
>
> In any case, some 12 years back, I noticed a tendency among my
> children to say "May you . . .?" And my partner's niblings do the
> same. And now, oddly, my 60ish manager is doing it, too.
>
> Is this new? Have any of you experienced this construction? When and
> where?
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Dixonary" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com
> <mailto:dixonary+unsubscribe (AT) googlegroups (DOT) com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/di...oglegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/dixonary/850d4bbf-8c7f-4681-a445-9e55ab84a278%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&u tm_source=footer>.
>
> --
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